tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15037609.post5224359028477104233..comments2023-10-01T16:53:17.274+01:00Comments on Cicero's Songs: The challenges that the next Liberal Democrat leader must addressCicerohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02090838836212624633noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15037609.post-27198912393276572192008-05-06T13:33:00.000+01:002008-05-06T13:33:00.000+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15037609.post-38686688207392475592007-11-29T13:06:00.000+00:002007-11-29T13:06:00.000+00:00The most insidious thing which has happened is tha...The most insidious thing which has happened is that whilst state ownership has decreased, state manipulation and control and interference has increased in different ways - often using the language of liberalism to mask this.<BR/><BR/>This has a very bad effect on the LibDems - many see the rhetoric, link it to the result and conclude that these liberal ideas don't work and we must oppose liberal ideas.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps nationalisation of industry is a pipe dream, but regulatory control is very real. The nationalisation of the individual also continues gathering speed with less privacy and schemes such as ID cards, the children's database and the DNA database.<BR/><BR/>I believe the late Chris Tame of the Libertarian Alliance saw in Thatcher a politician finding more efficient means to control, little wonder that Labour have adopted many of her ideas...Tristanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15395992764678278326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15037609.post-63724563880465680352007-11-27T09:54:00.000+00:002007-11-27T09:54:00.000+00:00On one issue at least I couldnt agree more, the in...On one issue at least I couldnt agree more, the inexperience and narrow focus of the current political class is all too apparent in its current dreadful performance in office and in the litany of failure in the management of change over recent years. On a practical level though Im interested how you would seek to alter this. The pressures of government and the need to market oneself over a long period in order to attain office seem to preclude the involvement of all but the most politically focussed. Does this mean you propose less overall government as well as devolving power to the local level? If so you get my vote Cicero. Bad luck re Aberdeen...better things to come no doubtAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15037609.post-26963349184723044222007-11-25T09:50:00.000+00:002007-11-25T09:50:00.000+00:00OK Matthew, apology acepted, and to be fair, when ...OK Matthew, apology acepted, and to be fair, when writing up such an enormous range of issues in as short a space as could manage, it is likely that some ideas wil come across with imprecision.<BR/><BR/>As to Aberdeen, it is a matter of record that Mathew Duncan was selected- I was second.Cicerohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02090838836212624633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15037609.post-53024854869582310622007-11-24T13:40:00.000+00:002007-11-24T13:40:00.000+00:00What word on AberdeenLepidusWhat word on Aberdeen<BR/><BR/><BR/>LepidusAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15037609.post-62229273725209465042007-11-23T17:11:00.000+00:002007-11-23T17:11:00.000+00:00madasafish - your examples are almost all drawn fr...madasafish - your examples are almost all drawn from the balance between the local and national state, rather than from the state vs non-state.<BR/><BR/>Cicero - had you expressed yourself differently, to suggest the role of the state has increased in some areas (you seem to be thinking particularly of small businessmen), I wouldn't have disagreed. But I think the niggling things you mention are actually quite trivial compared to the wholesale dropping of state control since the 1970s. One of the biggest things, which I didn't mention, is that far fewer people are living in state owned housing than was the case. Also globalisation means the state has lost a lot of power to global influences.<BR/><BR/>Sorry, my background means I have a great tendency to pick up on waffly phraseology and see if it's is justified, and I remain convinced that yours on this issue wasn't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15037609.post-37776520162363465342007-11-23T15:44:00.000+00:002007-11-23T15:44:00.000+00:00Has the power of the state increased? LETS SEE:Loc...Has the power of the state increased?<BR/><BR/> LETS SEE:<BR/>Local Government?<BR/>Anyone who suggests the scope an dpower of Local Government has increased vis a vis Central is deluded. Business rates, taxation capping etc have all basically neutered local power.<BR/><BR/>Local Hospitals?<BR/><BR/>Controlled by Trusts . Accountable to Health minister<BR/><BR/>Local Transport?<BR/>100% controlled by Whitehall.<BR/>Try building a new road<BR/><BR/>Want central money? Start Congestion charging or get nothing<BR/><BR/>Planning?<BR/>Whitehall can and often does overrule it<BR/><BR/>Schooling<BR/>City Academies, Tests etc are ALL centrally controlled.<BR/><BR/>Speech?<BR/><BR/>Various anti racial and religious hatred rules are enforced by: Whitehall<BR/><BR/>Waste?<BR/>Rules set by Whitehall<BR/><BR/>Referendums?<BR/>Power to the people?<BR/>Err no.<BR/><BR/>Government electronic Petitions?<BR/><BR/>Fill them in.<BR/>They will be ignored.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Rail and Air<BR/><BR/>All Whitehall controlled via Planning<BR/><BR/>Local Government structures?<BR/>Whitehall<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>To suggest in any way, we have a democracy in anything but name is delusional.<BR/><BR/>We have AN ELECTED AUTOCRACY.<BR/><BR/>Once in power, voters don't count.<BR/><BR/>Forget who controls the economic output.. It's the power of taxation and spending that matters. <BR/><BR/>And here control is 100% Whitehall.Madasafishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06109237198481955714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15037609.post-5728666802944396652007-11-23T14:08:00.000+00:002007-11-23T14:08:00.000+00:00Well Matthew I am not too keen on being called a l...Well Matthew I am not too keen on being called a liar on my own blog either. You are not putting forward different facts, you are disagreeing with my opinion, and my advice to you is to be at least polite when you disagree with someone. <BR/><BR/>I think that again you are misunderstanding my point. The point I am making is very clear: the role of the state- not state ownership but the role that state administration plays in regulating our society- is both more intrusive and more expensive (in relative and absolute terms) than it has ever been. This is a statement of fact. It is the case that the regulatory costs have grown dramatically- and in my view the private sector owners are facing similar levels of state interference through regulation that the nationalised industries received through staate ownership- soft power, rather than hard power, but still a significant problem. It is also, in my view a bad situation that should be tackled by reducing the regulatory burden and limiting the activities that the state undertakes.<BR/><BR/>I will not be insulted in this manner nor continue the debate until you retract your statements.Cicerohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02090838836212624633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15037609.post-34650334443881718502007-11-23T13:17:00.000+00:002007-11-23T13:17:00.000+00:00What we have seen in recent decades is the withdra...What we have seen in recent decades is the withdrawal of the state as an active participant in the economy. Your claim that the state's budget is now "higher than ever" is extremely misleading, since you mean that in absolute terms rather than as a share.<BR/><BR/>In short, the idea that "the power and role of the state has increased dramatically" is nuts, bonkers, and simply not supportable by the facts. The state has withdrawn from all sorts of things in which it was one active, down to such things as telling us how much money we could borrow, how much money we could take out of the country, what pay increases we should have. It has withdrawn from running our railways, from providing us with gas and electricity, and for that matter from telling us we can't shop on Sundays and what we can see in plays. <BR/><BR/>Sorry, Mr Cicero, I don't like people who spout things which aren't true.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15037609.post-47919382226563422312007-11-23T13:09:00.001+00:002007-11-23T13:09:00.001+00:00Slight digression, but how do you feel about Chris...Slight digression, but how do you feel about Chris Huhne's apparent willingness to exclude Scottish MPs from discussing 'English' business? It sounds very much in line with the Tory proposal you condemned in an earlier posting. Does this swing you to Cleggie?<BR/><BR/>WheatleyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15037609.post-77562242457685596842007-11-23T13:09:00.000+00:002007-11-23T13:09:00.000+00:00Slight digression, but how do you feel about Chris...Slight digression, but how do you feel about Chris Huhne's apparent willingness to exclude Scottish MPs from discussing 'English' business? It sounds very much in line with the Tory proposal you condemned in an earlier posting. Does this swing you to Cleggie?<BR/><BR/>WheatleyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15037609.post-65114593214395341362007-11-23T12:33:00.000+00:002007-11-23T12:33:00.000+00:00Matthew I take great exception to being called a l...Matthew I take great exception to being called a liar. You have misunderstood my point. The role of the state is not just a fucntion of what productive assets under under stante ownership. In fact the point I am making is that the role of the state has increased substantially- legislation has made regulation more intrusive and compliance more onerous. The detailed provisions of for example health and safety legislation are a massive burden on small business. So even though levels of state ownership fell after privatisation, the fact is that the power and role of the state has increased dramatically. In any event the UK state budget is now higher than it has ever been- a fact that should give everyone pause for thought.Cicerohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02090838836212624633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15037609.post-34063560094194413532007-11-23T09:23:00.000+00:002007-11-23T09:23:00.000+00:00Right so what you said was a lie.If the proportion...Right so what you said was a lie.<BR/>If the proportion of the economy under direct state control has decreased, how can the role of the state have increased?<BR/><BR/>The growth of the world economy and growing interconnectedness means the power of the state has decreased. It is increasingly subject to the dictates of global corporations, it is no longer the undisputed top dog.<BR/><BR/>So why did you lie? Was this just empty rhetoric you spouted out without thinking? Or is there some sinister agenda you're trying to promote and you thought you could do it by pulling a fast one on the gullible?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15037609.post-73487361999058454162007-11-23T07:14:00.000+00:002007-11-23T07:14:00.000+00:00"Human development in its richest diversity" - W. ..."Human development in its richest diversity" - W. von Humboldt's words, quoted by J S Mill in On Liberty. These words are the fundament of the Free Europe Constitution. <BR/><BR/>Vote YES or NO at www.FreeEurope.info!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15037609.post-74526920994030136012007-11-22T18:45:00.000+00:002007-11-22T18:45:00.000+00:00The proportion of the economy under direct state c...The <I/>proportion</I> of the economy under direct state control may have peaked in the 1970s, but the total scale of state operations has certainly increased: reflecting a much larger economy.Cicerohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02090838836212624633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15037609.post-17093078463948101722007-11-22T18:14:00.000+00:002007-11-22T18:14:00.000+00:00But this is just not true!Go back to the 1970s and...But this is just not true!<BR/><BR/>Go back to the 1970s and look at all the industries that were nationalised then and are not now. Look at the detailed control the state had on the economy then, even down to enforcing a prices and incomes policy.<BR/><BR/>All that has gone now, so how on earth can you say the role and power of the state has increased since then?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com